Israel-Gaza war

[Pres Mike]

I am a Palestinian-American, I am shocked and disguated by the recent attacks by the terrorist group of Hamas, which does not represent Palestine and illegally took control of the Gaza Strip in 2006. They run a dictatorship.

I do not support Israel or its illegal aparthid. But I hope that a quick ground invasion of Gaza can return control of the Gaza Strip to the moderate Palestinian Authority. I also hope Israel will minimize civilian deaths.

[Pres Mike]

I do not support Israel or its illegal aparthid. But I hope that a quick ground invasion of Gaza can return control of the Gaza Strip to the moderate Palestinian Authority. I also hope Israel will minimize civilian deaths.

I generally agree with this but my question is whether or not Fatah literally can hold Gaza if Israel hands it over to them or if Hamas retakes it two days after Israeli forces leave.

Almost certainly not. There will need to be an international peacekeeping force or IDF. The IDF in the West Bank is the only thing supporting Fatah.

[Pres Mike]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/us/politics/biden-israel-gaza.html

President Biden is warning Israel not occupy Gaza, since it will be a disaster. He does says he supports any military effort to destroy Hamas. But afterwards, the Gaza strip needs to be returned to the Palestitian Authroity like pre-2006.

[Pres Mike]

Under normal international law the area would belong to Israel anyway. Conquering Gaza is no more (...also no less, I guess) illegal than establishing settlements in the West Bank.

Right- Egypt and Jordan have dropped all claims to Gaza/WB, and there has never been any internationally recognized sovereign Palestinian state, so surely Israel would be the only country with any rights to the area.

Under normal international law the area would belong to Israel anyway. Conquering Gaza is no more (...also no less, I guess) illegal than establishing settlements in the West Bank.

This isn't true. The International Community has delegated the West Bank and Gaza Strip to a future Palestinian state. Israel agreed to this in the 1993 Olso Accords. Any West Bank settlement is ILLEGAL under international law. A process that Israel agreed to. The IDF occupation in the West Bank is also illegal, since Israel said they would withdraw all military forces from the West Bank in 5-10 years from when Olso was signed. The blockade of Gaza since 2007 is also illegal even if Hamas is not the internationally recognized government.

Any military action, by any country, that isn't entirely defensive is illegal unless authorized by the UN security council. The exception being to stop genocide.

So all military action by the IDF taken in Gaza is illegal unless its shooting down missiles or bombing strictly missile sites. Bombing hospitals, shelters, schools, declared safety routes, food pantries etc are all war crimes which goes beyond unauthorized miliary action.

[Pres Mike]

Under normal international law the area would belong to Israel anyway. Conquering Gaza is no more (...also no less, I guess) illegal than establishing settlements in the West Bank.

Right- Egypt and Jordan have dropped all claims to Gaza/WB, and there has never been any internationally recognized sovereign Palestinian state, so surely Israel would be the only country with any rights to the area.

Under normal international law the area would belong to Israel anyway. Conquering Gaza is no more (...also no less, I guess) illegal than establishing settlements in the West Bank.

This isn't true. The International Community has delegated the West Bank and Gaza Strip to a future Palestinian state.

1. The international community cannot do this without the agreement of the country in question here, which is Israel. (I agree that the predominant opinion within the international community is that these areas were never legitimately Israeli to begin with, but that is very much not how decolonization usually works; it respects colonial-era borders. Otherwise Africa -- and for that matter the Middle East -- would be much more splintered than it actually is; consider the nonrecognition of independence movements in Ambazonia/Biafra/Katanga. And Kurdistan.)

Israel agreed to this in the 1993 Olso Accords. Any West Bank settlement is ILLEGAL under international law. A process that Israel agreed to. The IDF occupation in the West Bank is also illegal, since Israel said they would withdraw all military forces from the West Bank in 5-10 years from when Olso was signed.

2. No, Israel agreed to negotiate the creation of a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank, but never agreed that it would comprise the entirety of these areas. It only ever agreed to withdraw from Areas A and B (and Gaza), which do not comprise most of the West Bank territorially, and it has never recognized with finality that it does not have a claim to any specific part of the West Bank or Gaza. Israel has never actually agreed to withdraw from Area C (though this has been offered, in 2000 and 2008, in exchange for Palestinian concessions, specifically the permanent disclaiming of any Palestinian right of return or influence over Israeli immigration policy; this was never actually agreed to).

It also did not fully withdraw, as you point out; both sides blame the other for not fulfilling their part of the agreement.

The blockade of Gaza since 2007 is also illegal even if Hamas is not the internationally recognized government.

3. No. Multiple theories have been proposed for why this would be the case, so I don't know which to respond to here, but they are all wrong.

Any military action, by any country, that isn't entirely defensive is illegal unless authorized by the UN security council. The exception being to stop genocide.

4. Nobody has seriously put this forward since the 1950s and this rule has very clearly gone into desuetude; otherwise a literally double-digit number of things done by permanent Security Council members (US/Russia/China/France, at least) would be illegal. (It is also not relevant because, again, Gaza belongs to Israel under normal rules, so suppressing some political entity there which is not recognizing Israeli jurisdiction is defense under normal rules.)

So all military action by the IDF taken in Gaza is illegal unless its shooting down missiles or bombing strictly missile sites. Bombing hospitals, shelters, schools, declared safety routes, food pantries etc are all war crimes which goes beyond unauthorized miliary action.

5. Targeting non-military targets is a war crime. Reoccupying Gaza would not be one, because under normal international law Gaza belongs to Israel. (And even if it didn't, given that its government tried to hold positions in Israeli territory...uh...last weekend, Israel would still be justified in advancing until that government is replaced, though really the issue here is just that the territory's rightful ruler under normal laws is Israel).

As we have already discussed, it is a long-standing policy of Hamas to militarize hospitals and schools (and apparently mosques), and use them as sites for storing or launching weapons. This would, in fact, make them quite valid military targets; that Israel does not do things like destroying hospitals is because its government holds its military to a (substantially) higher standard than normal international law.

First, let me say I appreciate the well thought out and well written post. Let me respond to some points

2. There was no indication that Israel would expand settlements in Area C. The whole point of Area C was to be discussed later, for potential Israeli military concerns (like troops on Jordan border). Not for future settlement. You even have former Israeli prime ministers say that present governments building settlements in Area C (like Netanyahu) was not the intention of the Olso accords and violated the spirt of the treaty and making a future peace harder.

3. No country on Earth can deny food, medicine, water, energy, shelter, treatment etc to another country's citizens. Or their own citizens based on your definition. This is illegal.

4. Countries violating this rule doesn't make it right.

5. While Israel has the right to go into Gaza to take out Hamas (with the unlikely approval from the UN), it still has been targeting civilian targets. Which are war crimes.

Even attacking civilian targets like hospitals that have been militarized is a war crime. You think Hamas is the first to try this? Why is it that other western powers (usually) avoid hitting hospitals and schools?

[Pres Mike]

There are, in fact, several things Biden could do:

* He could impose a no-fly zone and obliterate the Israeli Airforce

Huh?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CybLhohSTqf/

That is like a Nazi sympathiser asking the USA and Great Britain to start fighting each other on the day of the Normandy invasion in WW2.

At this stage, a more viable option is for President Biden to withdraw funding of $1 Billion annually to Egypt until they open the Rafah border and start taking Gazan refugees.

Rinse and repeat with Jordan.

At that stage, would you be surprised to learn of any potential links between Egypt and Hamas?

Jordan has absorbed so many refugees over the past 75 years (not merely Palestinians but, in more recent years, Iraqis and Syrians) that the number of refugees and their descendants vastly outstrips the "indigenous" population.

“Why don’t you just make Jordan the Palestinian state?”

Hashemite monarchy: —….—

Ironically, this is the same sort of flippant unconcern with how deeply traumatizing population movements can be that you see with people who insist that the Allies should have made the Zionists set up their state in Uganda or wherever.

A massive forced population transfer of Armenians out of Azerbaijan occurred earlier this year and the international community more or less ignored it.

No one forced the Armenians out of the N-Z region of Azerbaijan. They left on their own accord despite Azerbaijan saying they could stay. The N-Z was an self governing autonomous region that no one in the world recognized. Azerbaijan had every right to take control of its own internationally recognized territory. The Armenians just didn't want to live under Azerbaijan control

[Pres Mike]

There are, in fact, several things Biden could do:

* He could impose a no-fly zone and obliterate the Israeli Airforce

Huh?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CybLhohSTqf/

That is like a Nazi sympathiser asking the USA and Great Britain to start fighting each other on the day of the Normandy invasion in WW2.

At this stage, a more viable option is for President Biden to withdraw funding of $1 Billion annually to Egypt until they open the Rafah border and start taking Gazan refugees.

Rinse and repeat with Jordan.

At that stage, would you be surprised to learn of any potential links between Egypt and Hamas?

Jordan has absorbed so many refugees over the past 75 years (not merely Palestinians but, in more recent years, Iraqis and Syrians) that the number of refugees and their descendants vastly outstrips the "indigenous" population.

“Why don’t you just make Jordan the Palestinian state?”

Hashemite monarchy: —….—

Ironically, this is the same sort of flippant unconcern with how deeply traumatizing population movements can be that you see with people who insist that the Allies should have made the Zionists set up their state in Uganda or wherever.

A massive forced population transfer of Armenians out of Azerbaijan occurred earlier this year and the international community more or less ignored it.

No one forced the Armenians out of the N-Z region of Azerbaijan. They left on their own accord despite Azerbaijan saying they could stay. The N-Z was an self governing autonomous region that no one in the world recognized. Azerbaijan had every right to take control of its own internationally recognized territory. The Armenians just didn't want to live under Azerbaijan control

Saying that nobody “forced” the Armenians to leave is so deceptive that it’s practically a lie. Their territory, unrecognized or not, was conquered by a dictatorship which has shown no sign of respecting their rights or freedoms. Aliyev has repeatedly denied that Armenia is a real nation and has claimed it has no right to exist. In 2008 an Azeri soldier murdered a sleeping Armenian while in Hungary to take an English course. He was extradited to Azerbaijan to complete his sentence, where he was instead pardoned, promoted, and given a hero’s welcome by Aliyev. Azerbaijan just spent months blockading and starving out the territory in violation of previous agreements. During the war Armenians were tortured, executed in captivity, and in more than one case, beheaded on video.

The flight of the Armenians occurred because this is who conquered their territory. A dictatorship which has committed repeated atrocities against Armenians in Nagorno Karabakh and elsewhere. Frankly it was the only sane option. But yes, you are technically right that nobody actually forced every Armenian to leave at gunpoint.

Was it wise to leave? Perhaps. But its not genocide or ethnic cleansing.

[Pres Mike]

This is all highly organized. It's not just that it's not representative, it's that it's actively non-representative, with the intention of deceiving the pols and drowning out the majority.

They've also made their pet issue toxic. Note how all the reps suddenly calling for a temporary stop to the fighting are using the random term "humanitarian pause" because "Cease-fire" has become associated with the fringe.

1. Almost everyone is saying ceasefire
2. Ignore this all you want just like you ignore the situation in Gaza, but it will come back to bite you

You don't get that Biden can't stop this. No one can. After what Hamas has done, this is the path of action that ends with the least horror, and all the people advocating for radical moves are advocating for opening pandora's box.

So they don't need our money then, got it.

That is money very well-spent to keep Israel restrained and cautious. What you're watching right now is Israel restrained and cautious.

So you're saying if Israel doesn't get our money they'll throw a tantrum and murder even more children? That's how spoiled teens blackmail weak willed parents.

Gross misrepresentation based on data provided solely by Hamas-run bureaus aside, how did you think this was going to go? Did you think Hamas could commit the worst act of anti-Jewish genocide since the Holocaust and not have all hell rain down on them? This is what total war looks like, and Hamas started that war.

And it'll stay a conventional, contained war as long as Israel knows the world's greatest power is on its side - something the vast majority of the US public supports.

As a palestinian-American, Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. But Israel shouldn't be raining hell on innocent children. 3k kids killed so far. When the US was attacked on 9/11, it didn't kill kids in Afghanistan

[Pres Mike]

I'm still deeply skeptical that Israel plans to invade and occupy the entire Gaza strip. Forces haven't even entered Gaza City proper. Going house to house, tunnel by tunnel would take months and 10x the casualties.

Than you repeat in Southern Gaza, which now has 2.3 million people.

I don't think Netanyahu has a plan at all. His government obviously can't let the events of Oct 7 so unpunished and they need a "victory" of some sort. But a full scale invasion of the Gaza Strip still seems unlikely.

Suppose they did...what next? If the IDF occupies the Gaza Strip you'll have a never ending Vietnam like insurgency. The ideal solution would be returning the strip back to the Abbas government, backed by international troops. But I very much doubt any Israeli government wants foreign troops in lands they still claim to be Israeli land.

[Pres Mike]

Suppose they did...what next? If the IDF occupies the Gaza Strip you'll have a never ending Vietnam like insurgency. The ideal solution would be returning the strip back to the Abbas government, backed by international troops. But I very much doubt any Israeli government wants foreign troops in lands they still claim to be Israeli land.

You don't have that in the West Bank, and you didn't have that in Gaza or southern Lebanon when Israel occupied those places. (You had discrete insurgencies, between 1988-1994 and 2001-2005, but not a never-ending Vietnam-style quagmire; most of those places were fine, which is why Gaza and the West Bank had settlement projects). The difference is that Vietnamese insurgents could be supplied through North Vietnam, but supplying Gazan insurgents would be much harder. Of course so long as humanitarian aid continues moving into the region it could be done.

I think foreign troops in an area Israel intends to give up eventually who are there with the sanction of the Israeli government is fine; there are many governments permitting allied nations to set up military bases on their territory, after all, and Gaza is only "Israeli territory" if you look at it from a legalistic rather than a practical standpoint.

Women and children represent 67% of the killed in the Gaza Strip.

https://www.who.int/news/item/03-11-2023-women-and-newborns-bearing-the-brunt-of-the-conflict-in-gaza-un-agencies-warn

Wow, Hamas really needs to unconditionally surrender, or at least dramatically change the way they prosecute their wars. (As I've discussed elsewhere, their ways of war have been copied outside the Middle East, and the general attitude of news media towards stuff like this is just going to make the next dozen insurgencies use human shields more).

Suppose they did...what next? If the IDF occupies the Gaza Strip you'll have a never ending Vietnam like insurgency. The ideal solution would be returning the strip back to the Abbas government, backed by international troops. But I very much doubt any Israeli government wants foreign troops in lands they still claim to be Israeli land.

Israel does not claim the Gaza strip.

https://www.politico.eu/article/ehud-barak-israel-palestine-war-hamas-global-opinion-sours/

An arab international force was discussed in 2008 but Egypt and Abbas did not want to.

Israel has never recognized boundaries for a Palestinian state (though such boundaries have been offered), so under international law Gaza belongs to Israel whether it "claims" it or not, unless it actually recognizes it as part of a foreign state, which it has not done. Egypt does not want to participate in such a force (it didn't then, and I doubt it does now), but I think the modern suggestions don't contemplate Egyptian participation.

You don't have an insurgency in the West Bank because
A. Palestinians are free to leave the West bank through Jordan. They can go to other countries and send money home like my grandfather did befre moving to the US
B. A Palestinian "government" in most cities, towns and villages. The first intifada resulted in the Olso accords. The second intifada was caused by Israel not withdrawing from Area A and allowing Palestinian goverance.

In outright Israeli occupation in the Gaza Strip would result in a Hamas insurgency, backed by Iran. The only way to prevent this is an Abbas led government, backed by international troops.

[Pres Mike]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/08/blinken-gaza-future-reoccupation-indefinite/

Has the USA ever given Israel explicit, public red lines with respect to the Palestinian Territories like this before?

The US also says Israel shouldn't build more settlements. They do anyway.

[Pres Mike]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-10/ty-article/.premium/israeli-media-watchdog-says-it-was-just-raising-questions-on-photographers-hamas-link/0000018b-b88c-dedf-adab-fd9cfae90000

Vosem would believe anything Israel says

I've expressed skepticism about Israeli government accounts in this thread. OTOH I think Palestinian liberationism should be destroyed and foreign sympathy for it should be driven to zero, so this has not been the main focus of my posts.

Wow, I've lost all respect for you. Hamas is not the same as Palestine. So you don't think Palestinians should have a state? You think they should continue to live under apartheid? You think 10,000 innocent deaths are ok?

Israel has the right to defend itself and get revenge on terrorists who did the Oct 7 attacks. But Hamas is a terrorist group who illegally seized control of the Gaza strip from the internationally recongized Palestinian Authority.

Blinken brings a notable shift in US language toward Israel as pressure mounts at home and abroad

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/10/politics/us-support-for-israel

Effect of the democratic voter base pressure at home, after the correlation was proved with the declining poll numbers for Joe Biden and the return of Donald Trump.

The rhetoric will change towards pressuring Israel more for a peaceful solution, but the actions will remain the same. Israel is too strategic to the United States on an economic and geopolitical level, as their door to have a say on what goes on in the Middle East.

They care about this relationship with Israel way more than with Palestinian non-white lives.

Israel is not white either so please stop with this nonsense

The Ashkenazim Jews are. They come from Europe.

[Pres Mike]

The Palestinian cause is simply evil enough

This is plain racist. I am Palestinian..am I evil? I want a Palestinian state. I support the two state solution through peaceful means like most Palestinians. Its the current Israeli government that refuses to negotiate, has propped up Hamas and continues to build more illegal settlements.

Is Joe Biden evil? Or the Jewish Bernie Sanders? Or Obama or Merkel? They all support a Palestinian state.

[Pres Mike]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-10/ty-article/.premium/israeli-media-watchdog-says-it-was-just-raising-questions-on-photographers-hamas-link/0000018b-b88c-dedf-adab-fd9cfae90000

Vosem would believe anything Israel says

I've expressed skepticism about Israeli government accounts in this thread. OTOH I think Palestinian liberationism should be destroyed and foreign sympathy for it should be driven to zero, so this has not been the main focus of my posts.

Wow, I've lost all respect for you. Hamas is not the same as Palestine. So you don't think Palestinians should have a state? You think they should continue to live under apartheid? You think 10,000 innocent deaths are ok?

Israel has the right to defend itself and get revenge on terrorists who did the Oct 7 attacks. But Hamas is a terrorist group who illegally seized control of the Gaza strip from the internationally recongized Palestinian Authority.

Blinken brings a notable shift in US language toward Israel as pressure mounts at home and abroad

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/10/politics/us-support-for-israel

Effect of the democratic voter base pressure at home, after the correlation was proved with the declining poll numbers for Joe Biden and the return of Donald Trump.

The rhetoric will change towards pressuring Israel more for a peaceful solution, but the actions will remain the same. Israel is too strategic to the United States on an economic and geopolitical level, as their door to have a say on what goes on in the Middle East.

They care about this relationship with Israel way more than with Palestinian non-white lives.

Israel is not white either so please stop with this nonsense

The Ashkenazim Jews are. They come from Europe.

This is a very Americanized view of race. I know it might surprise Red Velvet but Jews have long been hated by white supremacists. In fact, most consider them to be their worst enemy.

The American view is the correct view. It shouldn't be surprising that white supremacists are wrong. Jews from Europe are WHITE. They are European. They are Polish, Russian, German etc. Jews aren't a race, its a religion

[Pres Mike]

Blinken brings a notable shift in US language toward Israel as pressure mounts at home and abroad

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/10/politics/us-support-for-israel

Effect of the democratic voter base pressure at home, after the correlation was proved with the declining poll numbers for Joe Biden and the return of Donald Trump.

The rhetoric will change towards pressuring Israel more for a peaceful solution, but the actions will remain the same. Israel is too strategic to the United States on an economic and geopolitical level, as their door to have a say on what goes on in the Middle East.

They care about this relationship with Israel way more than with Palestinian non-white lives.

Please stop trying to make this about race, thanks.

This is a literal race war. Race has everything to do with it. "Brown vs white" or "non-white vs white" is a facile and incorrect way of putting it, but Palestinian vs Jew? Yeah, it's a race war between Palestinians and Jews.

NO IT IS NOT A RACE WAR. Jesus christ this is an ignorant post

1. There is no such thing as the Jewish race. Being Jewish is a religion
2. Both Europeans and Arabs are caucasians
3. Half of Israel's population are Mizrahi (Middle Eastern Jews) who are gentically identically to Arabs

It is not even a war of religion. Its a war aganist a nation and a terrorist group, who do not represent Palestine. Thats it. Thats like calling the Viet Cong fighting the US a race war between Asians and Whites

Source: I am a feaking Palestinian

[Pres Mike]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-10/ty-article/.premium/israeli-media-watchdog-says-it-was-just-raising-questions-on-photographers-hamas-link/0000018b-b88c-dedf-adab-fd9cfae90000

Vosem would believe anything Israel says

I've expressed skepticism about Israeli government accounts in this thread. OTOH I think Palestinian liberationism should be destroyed and foreign sympathy for it should be driven to zero, so this has not been the main focus of my posts.

Wow, I've lost all respect for you. Hamas is not the same as Palestine. So you don't think Palestinians should have a state? You think they should continue to live under apartheid? You think 10,000 innocent deaths are ok?

Israel has the right to defend itself and get revenge on terrorists who did the Oct 7 attacks. But Hamas is a terrorist group who illegally seized control of the Gaza strip from the internationally recongized Palestinian Authority.

Blinken brings a notable shift in US language toward Israel as pressure mounts at home and abroad

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/10/politics/us-support-for-israel

Effect of the democratic voter base pressure at home, after the correlation was proved with the declining poll numbers for Joe Biden and the return of Donald Trump.

The rhetoric will change towards pressuring Israel more for a peaceful solution, but the actions will remain the same. Israel is too strategic to the United States on an economic and geopolitical level, as their door to have a say on what goes on in the Middle East.

They care about this relationship with Israel way more than with Palestinian non-white lives.

Israel is not white either so please stop with this nonsense

The Ashkenazim Jews are. They come from Europe.

This is a very Americanized view of race. I know it might surprise Red Velvet but Jews have long been hated by white supremacists. In fact, most consider them to be their worst enemy.

The American view is the correct view. It shouldn't be surprising that white supremacists are wrong. Jews from Europe are WHITE. They are European. They are Polish, Russian, German etc. Jews aren't a race, its a religion

Ashkenazi Jews are absolutely white but the majority of Jews in Israel aren't Ashkenazi.

I would also consider Sephardic Jews white.

Still, in the minds of most westerners, whether left or right, Israel is the white country and Palestine the non white country.

Literally nobody but the most igornant people or Neo Nazis thinks the Israeli-Palestine conflict a war between whites and non whites.

[Pres Mike]

Blinken brings a notable shift in US language toward Israel as pressure mounts at home and abroad

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/10/politics/us-support-for-israel

Effect of the democratic voter base pressure at home, after the correlation was proved with the declining poll numbers for Joe Biden and the return of Donald Trump.

The rhetoric will change towards pressuring Israel more for a peaceful solution, but the actions will remain the same. Israel is too strategic to the United States on an economic and geopolitical level, as their door to have a say on what goes on in the Middle East.

They care about this relationship with Israel way more than with Palestinian non-white lives.

Please stop trying to make this about race, thanks.

This is a literal race war. Race has everything to do with it. "Brown vs white" or "non-white vs white" is a facile and incorrect way of putting it, but Palestinian vs Jew? Yeah, it's a race war between Palestinians and Jews.

NO IT IS NOT A RACE WAR. Jesus christ this is an ignorant post

1. There is no such thing as the Jewish race. Being Jewish is a religion
2. Both Europeans and Arabs are caucasians
3. Half of Israel's population are Mizrahi (Middle Eastern Jews) who are gentically identically to Arabs

It is not even a war of religion. Its a war aganist a nation and a terrorist group, who do not represent Palestine. Thats it. Thats like calling the Viet Cong fighting the US a race war between Asians and Whites

Source: I am a feaking Palestinian

Race isn’t purely defined easily like that though, social perceptions matter much more than what you’re implying. Race is not just about genetics, but a social construct.

You say Europeans and Arabs are both Caucasians like they were the same thing and yet that doesn’t stop Arabs from being treated in a racist way when in Europe.

I have some Arab physical traits for example and while I was living in Europe someone asked me once if I happened to be a terrorist. I am quite sure that if I didn’t have some Arab mixed in me that wouldn’t have been said. Real Arabs go through some much tougher sh*t in Europe these days with the rise of dangerous right-wing populism.

Lol I am a Arab-Muslim living in the southern US, I know about discrimination. I always get funny looks when I check "white" on employment and college applications despite the US census considers me white. I know I am not white. I am not treated like a white person. But according to the US government I am white

[Pres Mike]

Lol I am a Arab-Muslim living in the southern US, I know about discrimination. I always get funny looks when I check "white" on employment and college applications despite the US census considers me white. I know I am not white. I am not treated like a white person. But according to the US government I am white

You are White though, technically speaking. But you’re not “White” because you’re not perceived like that by the environment you’re located in, which was built by people who look “whiter” than you.

And that difference is the key on understanding why Europeans and Arabs aren’t perceived with the same level of sympathy in their conflicts by an important crowd that holds power. There is a structural difference on the matter that is reflected on official positions regarding Israel/Palestine where these technicalities do not matter at all.

I'm white technically. But in the US, most of the population only considers people of European descent to be white.

I do have green eyes since my family is from Palestine. I have black hair and tan skin now, but as a baby I had blond hair and milk colored skin. A reminder of the crusades lol. Levant Arabs are lighter than someone from Arabia for example

[Pres Mike]

Iran and Saudi Arabia are starting to become increasingly close after the events of 10/7/23 and subsequent Israeli military response.

Needless to say, this is not at all the direction that the US was looking towards when it came to the Abraham Accords and trying to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons.

The leaders of Iran and Saudi Arabia, regional rivals who restored diplomatic ties this year, met in Riyadh on Saturday at a summit where they called for an immediate cease-fire in Gaza and unconditional delivery of humanitarian aid to the enclave, which Israeli forces have besieged since the Oct. 7 Hamas attacks.

The two Islamic countries, who support opposing factions in proxy conflicts across the region, first announced their diplomatic breakthrough in March, after years of hostility, in a deal brokered by China. But it was unclear whether the shift would lead to a lasting détente between Saudi Arabia’s Sunni monarchy and Iran’s Shiite government.

President Ebrahim Raisi of Iran, whose visit to Saudi Arabia was the first by an Iranian president to the kingdom in more than a decade, was greeted at the summit venue by Saudi Arabia’s de facto ruler, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. The Iranian president draped on his shoulder a kaffiyeh, the black and white square checkered scarf that has become a badge of Palestinian identity.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/11/world/middleeast/iran-saudi-arabia-gaza-cease-fire.html

Iran and Saudi Arabia getting close is a good thing. It lessens the chance of a major war in the region. It was a good thing when they restored relations last March, despite it being faciliated by China.

[Pres Mike]

The war has pretty much been successful at getting Iran to decouple from Hamas. Notwithstanding the predictions of AAPI on earlier pages, it's become clear that neither Iran nor Hezbollah is going to get into this war, and that is in spite of Israel apparently behaving pretty belligerently on the Lebanese border, with a high number of Hezbollah casualties -- which reinforces the idea that Hezbollah is a paper tiger (which it pretty clearly has been since losing the 2006 war).

The behavior of Saudi Arabia is interesting; on the one hand shooting down Houthi missiles (and repeating Israeli narratives on state television) makes it virtually a co-belligerent of Israel, but seeking better relations with Iran during the same period also makes it less likely that the war will spiral into a broader regional conflict.

I think the most parsimonious explanation is, just as they have been doing over the past few decades, the Palestinian liberationists are alienating their natural allies. They began with total sympathy from everyone in the Arab world; through it away by rejecting peace deals in 2000/2008; and now once again look unsympathetic by trying to drag countries which are unready to fight into a regional war.

Hey I noticed you never responded to my posts when you called the movement for Palestine evil and anyone who supports Palestine to be evil

[Pres Mike]

Prime Minister of Jordan, Bisher Khasawneh, said any attempts to expel Palestinians from the West Bank across the Jordan River would be a "declaration of war".

https://news.yahoo.com/jordan-says-beefs-army-presence-220107172.html

Amazing things about the Palestinians' Muslim neighbours. No one wants them.

Jordan will not take one West Bank refugee.

Egypt will not even take one Gazan refugee unless it is a premature baby from the al-Shifa Hospital.

There is a duplicitous side to the Muslim brotherhood towards Gazans. Happy to chant on Al Jazeera and CNN for you, but don't come to our country for help when you need it most.

The US should step up and put pressure on these two countries to do more to help with the situation in Gaza. The US gives $1Bn to each country on an annual basis, and basically get nothing in return.

Because they don't want ethnic cleansing? Because they don't want millions of innocent people to be forced from their homes into the desert?

If their was even a remote possiablity that Jordan and Egypt would accept this, Netanyahu would depopulate the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Am I exaggerating? Maybe, but there are people in the current Israeli cabinet pushing for just this

[Pres Mike]

Israel's Minister of Communications suggesting to cut off the foreskins of Hamas fighters is incredible content, really. They should also burn all images of Allah in Gaza while they're at it. That will be a proper revenge.

There are no images of Allah. An image of God is one of the most haram/salacious in Islam.

[Pres Mike]

No, any conclusion in which Hamas does not surrender unconditionally, and agree to implement the directives of the Israeli government, is unacceptable. If Israel is unwilling to bomb Gaza then other countries, or private organizations, should do it, though I think Israel is the country most enthusiastic about this (and also is who the territory belongs to legally), so it makes the most sense.

The role of America and other Western countries should be shutting down aid organizations that are trying to send aid to territories under Hamas's control and criminalizing their activities, instead of cooperating with them. Aid can be sent to territories ruled by Hamas once Hamas either stops ruling them or surrenders unconditionally. The Israeli blockade of Gaza was indeed unjust; it should have always been an Earth blockade. Flotillas of private individuals from around the world should travel to Gaza to destroy the government and ideology there, until Palestinian liberationism is crushed under the weight of eight billion human souls.

Your just a troll at this point

[Pres Mike]

No, any conclusion in which Hamas does not surrender unconditionally, and agree to implement the directives of the Israeli government, is unacceptable. If Israel is unwilling to bomb Gaza then other countries, or private organizations, should do it, though I think Israel is the country most enthusiastic about this (and also is who the territory belongs to legally), so it makes the most sense.

The role of America and other Western countries should be shutting down aid organizations that are trying to send aid to territories under Hamas's control and criminalizing their activities, instead of cooperating with them. Aid can be sent to territories ruled by Hamas once Hamas either stops ruling them or surrenders unconditionally. The Israeli blockade of Gaza was indeed unjust; it should have always been an Earth blockade. Flotillas of private individuals from around the world should travel to Gaza to destroy the government and ideology there, until Palestinian liberationism is crushed under the weight of eight billion human souls.

Your just a troll at this point

He's not a troll. He enjoys the bombing.

Disgusting

[Pres Mike]

It seems the pause in fighting for a week has allowed the global media to move on from the conflict. This will give Israel even more of a free hand.

What worries me is Nakba 2.0 happening. What happens if fighting gets so intense in southern Gaza that Egypt allows people to flee? 45% of all homes in the Gaza Strip has been destroyed, mostly in the North. If if the same happens in the south, we could be looking at 2.5 million homeless people. It would be the greatest humantarian crisis in 100 years.