Israel-Gaza war

[GeneralMacArthur]

On January 7, UNOHCA reported that the death count for the war was 23,000.

On February 5, Al-Jazeera reported 27,500.

Then a couple days ago, the death toll surpassed 30,000.

If you do the math, that's about 30 days in between each reporting, the first increased by 4,500 deaths or only 150 deaths per day.  The second saw an increase of only 2,500 deaths or less than 100 deaths per day.

There were about 90 days from 10/7 to 1/7, so the average in that period was more than 250 per day.

Now I don't know about you, but if Israel was killing 250 people/day three months ago, then 150 people/day two months ago, and then <100 people/day this month, I would call that an improvement.

And why is this happening?  It certainly isn't because the Gazans have gotten better at hiding or defending themselves against Israeli troops or something.  Quite the contrary.  The civilians are more vulnerable now than ever.

It certainly puts the lie to the notion that this was ever a "genocide."  In fact, with the Gaza Strip birth rate being about 28/1000 or ~55K/yr, I wouldn't be surprised if the population ends up increasing by the time the war is over.

Instead, as I predicted five months ago, this is starting to look remarkably similar to the Iraq War.  A short period of heavy civilian casualties and destruction, which leads to a quick capitulation by the regime, followed by a long drawn-out period of occupation, insurgent warfare, regime building and humanitarian stewardship.

I further predict that within six months the primary cause of death in the Gaza Strip will be terrorist attacks by insurgents who seek to hamper Israel's efforts by blowing up infrastructure, large crowds of civilians, etc. to try and frighten people away from collaborating with Israel, and make everyone blame Israel for the deaths.  Meanwhile the primary role of Israel will be to try and protect the civilians and prevent insurgent attacks from occurring, which will involve strikes that often cause more civilian death as collateral damage, which people will then of course blame on Israel.

[Indy Texas]

It certainly puts the lie to the notion that this was ever a "genocide."  In fact, with the Gaza Strip birth rate being about 28/1000 or ~55K/yr, I wouldn't be surprised if the population ends up increasing by the time the war is over.

Instead, as I predicted five months ago, this is starting to look remarkably similar to the Iraq War.  A short period of heavy civilian casualties and destruction, which leads to a quick capitulation by the regime, followed by a long drawn-out period of occupation, insurgent warfare, regime building and humanitarian stewardship.

TIL you're allowed to kill people as long as your kill rate doesn't exceed the natural rate of population growth.

Operation Enduring Freedom in 2003 resulted in 3-7K Iraqi civilian deaths in a country of 25M. That is why no one ever accused the United States of committing "genocide" in Iraq.

You keep acting as though Israel is being held to these incredibly unfair standards no other country in the world has to abide by when the issue is that Israel's behavior is without precedent for a country that expects to be treated like a Western liberal democracy. I realize they want their hostages back but Iran held Americans hostage for over a year and we never indiscriminately bombed Tehran.

[GeneralMacArthur]

It certainly puts the lie to the notion that this was ever a "genocide."  In fact, with the Gaza Strip birth rate being about 28/1000 or ~55K/yr, I wouldn't be surprised if the population ends up increasing by the time the war is over.

Instead, as I predicted five months ago, this is starting to look remarkably similar to the Iraq War.  A short period of heavy civilian casualties and destruction, which leads to a quick capitulation by the regime, followed by a long drawn-out period of occupation, insurgent warfare, regime building and humanitarian stewardship.

TIL you're allowed to kill people as long as your kill rate doesn't exceed the natural rate of population growth.

Operation Enduring Freedom in 2003 resulted in 3-7K Iraqi civilian deaths in a country of 25M. That is why no one ever accused the United States of committing "genocide" in Iraq.

You keep acting as though Israel is being held to these incredibly unfair standards no other country in the world has to abide by when the issue is that Israel's behavior is without precedent for a country that expects to be treated like a Western liberal democracy. I realize they want their hostages back but Iran held Americans hostage for over a year and we never indiscriminately bombed Tehran.

I'm sorry, is the definition of genocide "any time you kill people"?  Was every war ever fought a genocide?  Iraq didn't use the same tactics Hamas does, in that respect these are two different wars because Hamas intentionally tried to put as many civilians in harm's way as possible.  Also it has taken a lot longer to root out Hamas than it took to defeat Saddam Hussein (five weeks).  Iraq Body Count gives 7,269 civilians dead from the 40-day-long invasion phase which is 181 civilian deaths/day.  This is not very far off from the numbers we are seeing in Gaza.  Obviously one country is bigger than the other as well.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

It would be one thing to have bombed them for a continual campagin of drone strikes and raids into Gaza to eliminate the Hamas leadership as well as a tightening of the existing blockade but the current plan of discriminate carpet bombing has no point but revenge.

There is no reason other than an emotional reaction to believe that Israel's bombings have no point but revenge.  Israel has been consistently clear from day 1 that their goal is to eliminate Hamas and to all appearances they are succeeding, as Hamas presence outside of Rafah has dropped and Israel now appears to be mostly an occupying force dealing with urban guerilla warfare, rather than actively engaged in street-by-street conquest.  Accordingly, targeted bombings and shootings have slowed down dramatically and demolitions these days are mostly related to the destruction of tunnel networks or booby-trapped buildings.

Drone strikes and raids are what Israel used to do but the last few years have shown that this is not enough to remove Hamas.  The tunnel network is too strong.  You have to physically occupy Gaza and go building-to-building taking the weapons and destroying the tunnels.  If the tunnels are under buildings then you have no choice but to collapse those buildings.

It may not seem reasonable -- those buildings are people's homes, after all -- but it is Hamas to blame for this, not Israel.  Those buildings were marked for death the moment Hamas decided to remove the earth in their foundations and build tunnels instead.  Or the minute Hamas decided to fill the corridors with explosives.  Hamas fans were very proud a couple weeks ago when the IDF stormed a building that was lined with explosives and Hamas ignited the building, destroying it and killing 24 Jewish soldiers.  Israel should have just done an airstrike on that building.  But then people would post a video of it and say "look what Israel is doing to our homes.  This isn't about eliminating Hamas this is about revenge."  Hamas got 15 Israeli soldiers in Khan Younis just yesterday. 

Blaming Hamas for the deaths of Palestinians is perilously close to victim blaming.

No, it isn’t and respectfully, that comparison is absurd.

[Lief 🗽]

U.N. Says Inquiry Finds Evidence of Sexual Assault in Hamas-Led Attack on Israel

In their report, the experts said they had found “reasonable grounds” to believe that sexual violence occurred during the Hamas-led incursion into Israel, including rape and gang rape in at least three locations: the Nova music festival site and its surroundings, Road 232, and Kibbutz Re’im.

“In most of these incidents, victims first subjected to rape were then killed, and at least two incidents relate to the rape of women’s corpses,” the report said.

The report said it found “a pattern of victims, mostly women, found fully or partially naked, bound, and shot across multiple locations,” and although the evidence was circumstantial the pattern could indicate some of form of sexual violence and torture.

It also said it had found “clear and convincing evidence” that hostages being held in Gaza were assaulted.

[GeneralMacArthur]

U.N. Says Inquiry Finds Evidence of Sexual Assault in Hamas-Led Attack on Israel

In their report, the experts said they had found “reasonable grounds” to believe that sexual violence occurred during the Hamas-led incursion into Israel, including rape and gang rape in at least three locations: the Nova music festival site and its surroundings, Road 232, and Kibbutz Re’im.

“In most of these incidents, victims first subjected to rape were then killed, and at least two incidents relate to the rape of women’s corpses,” the report said.

The report said it found “a pattern of victims, mostly women, found fully or partially naked, bound, and shot across multiple locations,” and although the evidence was circumstantial the pattern could indicate some of form of sexual violence and torture.

It also said it had found “clear and convincing evidence” that hostages being held in Gaza were assaulted.

The Intercept has been really really really pushing this claim that nobody was raped by Hamas and the NYT just made it all up.  They have been pushing this story since 10/7.  I haven't read any of their reporting since, you know, it's The Intercept, but I find it really disgusting that their only interest in the 10/7 attack is to harp on and on and on about how actually nobody was raped.

Of course it's a good thing I didn't waste my time since now it turns out they were just lying all along.

[GoTfan]

It would be one thing to have bombed them for a continual campagin of drone strikes and raids into Gaza to eliminate the Hamas leadership as well as a tightening of the existing blockade but the current plan of discriminate carpet bombing has no point but revenge.

There is no reason other than an emotional reaction to believe that Israel's bombings have no point but revenge.  Israel has been consistently clear from day 1 that their goal is to eliminate Hamas and to all appearances they are succeeding, as Hamas presence outside of Rafah has dropped and Israel now appears to be mostly an occupying force dealing with urban guerilla warfare, rather than actively engaged in street-by-street conquest.  Accordingly, targeted bombings and shootings have slowed down dramatically and demolitions these days are mostly related to the destruction of tunnel networks or booby-trapped buildings.

Drone strikes and raids are what Israel used to do but the last few years have shown that this is not enough to remove Hamas.  The tunnel network is too strong.  You have to physically occupy Gaza and go building-to-building taking the weapons and destroying the tunnels.  If the tunnels are under buildings then you have no choice but to collapse those buildings.

It may not seem reasonable -- those buildings are people's homes, after all -- but it is Hamas to blame for this, not Israel.  Those buildings were marked for death the moment Hamas decided to remove the earth in their foundations and build tunnels instead.  Or the minute Hamas decided to fill the corridors with explosives.  Hamas fans were very proud a couple weeks ago when the IDF stormed a building that was lined with explosives and Hamas ignited the building, destroying it and killing 24 Jewish soldiers.  Israel should have just done an airstrike on that building.  But then people would post a video of it and say "look what Israel is doing to our homes.  This isn't about eliminating Hamas this is about revenge."  Hamas got 15 Israeli soldiers in Khan Younis just yesterday. 

Blaming Hamas for the deaths of Palestinians is perilously close to victim blaming.

No, it isn’t and respectfully, that comparison is absurd.

I dunno. There are a lot of people who are in fact blaming Palestinians for Paelstinians dying.

[lfromnj]

It's tempting as it is to assume the current events in Gaza are a one-off blip in an otherwise long running conflict, the death toll in this instance is truly staggering and not at comporable to the past. Hamas terrorism on October 7th was of course responsible for starting the current conflict, by getting rid of any Israeli opposition for the current campagin and people who celebrated it as some glorious decolonail strike are more vacuumes but the  that does change the reality of current events.

More people have been killed in the last 6 months in Gaza by the IDF  than have been killed for the past 50 years of the conflict prior. So many people seem to to be trying to pretend this distinction doesn't matter but the scale of the campagin in Gaza is horrific and there's no actual end in sight for the conflict.  There's no actual proposal for a long term end to the conflict.

For those who are supportive of continuing the war, just how many palestianian deaths are acceptable for elimating hamas ?. The way people like Mr X, Vosem and Patzer act, they seem to think that killing every single resident in Gaza is worth it if it eliminates Hamas.

It would be one thing to have bombed them for a continual campagin of drone strikes and raids into Gaza to eliminate the Hamas leadership as well as a tightening of the existing blockade but the current plan of discriminate carpet bombing has no point but revenge.

One factor in so many dead people is the greater population from Gazans .

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

It would be one thing to have bombed them for a continual campagin of drone strikes and raids into Gaza to eliminate the Hamas leadership as well as a tightening of the existing blockade but the current plan of discriminate carpet bombing has no point but revenge.

There is no reason other than an emotional reaction to believe that Israel's bombings have no point but revenge.  Israel has been consistently clear from day 1 that their goal is to eliminate Hamas and to all appearances they are succeeding, as Hamas presence outside of Rafah has dropped and Israel now appears to be mostly an occupying force dealing with urban guerilla warfare, rather than actively engaged in street-by-street conquest.  Accordingly, targeted bombings and shootings have slowed down dramatically and demolitions these days are mostly related to the destruction of tunnel networks or booby-trapped buildings.

Drone strikes and raids are what Israel used to do but the last few years have shown that this is not enough to remove Hamas.  The tunnel network is too strong.  You have to physically occupy Gaza and go building-to-building taking the weapons and destroying the tunnels.  If the tunnels are under buildings then you have no choice but to collapse those buildings.

It may not seem reasonable -- those buildings are people's homes, after all -- but it is Hamas to blame for this, not Israel.  Those buildings were marked for death the moment Hamas decided to remove the earth in their foundations and build tunnels instead.  Or the minute Hamas decided to fill the corridors with explosives.  Hamas fans were very proud a couple weeks ago when the IDF stormed a building that was lined with explosives and Hamas ignited the building, destroying it and killing 24 Jewish soldiers.  Israel should have just done an airstrike on that building.  But then people would post a video of it and say "look what Israel is doing to our homes.  This isn't about eliminating Hamas this is about revenge."  Hamas got 15 Israeli soldiers in Khan Younis just yesterday. 

Blaming Hamas for the deaths of Palestinians is perilously close to victim blaming.

No, it isn’t and respectfully, that comparison is absurd.

I dunno. There are a lot of people who are in fact blaming Palestinians for Paelstinians dying.

I mean, are you conflating Hamas with Palestinian civilians?

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Hamas is responsible for the deaths on both sides of the conflict and this is a deliberate strategy on their part.

[VBM]

It would be one thing to have bombed them for a continual campagin of drone strikes and raids into Gaza to eliminate the Hamas leadership as well as a tightening of the existing blockade but the current plan of discriminate carpet bombing has no point but revenge.

There is no reason other than an emotional reaction to believe that Israel's bombings have no point but revenge.  Israel has been consistently clear from day 1 that their goal is to eliminate Hamas and to all appearances they are succeeding, as Hamas presence outside of Rafah has dropped and Israel now appears to be mostly an occupying force dealing with urban guerilla warfare, rather than actively engaged in street-by-street conquest.  Accordingly, targeted bombings and shootings have slowed down dramatically and demolitions these days are mostly related to the destruction of tunnel networks or booby-trapped buildings.

Drone strikes and raids are what Israel used to do but the last few years have shown that this is not enough to remove Hamas.  The tunnel network is too strong.  You have to physically occupy Gaza and go building-to-building taking the weapons and destroying the tunnels.  If the tunnels are under buildings then you have no choice but to collapse those buildings.

It may not seem reasonable -- those buildings are people's homes, after all -- but it is Hamas to blame for this, not Israel.  Those buildings were marked for death the moment Hamas decided to remove the earth in their foundations and build tunnels instead.  Or the minute Hamas decided to fill the corridors with explosives.  Hamas fans were very proud a couple weeks ago when the IDF stormed a building that was lined with explosives and Hamas ignited the building, destroying it and killing 24 Jewish soldiers.  Israel should have just done an airstrike on that building.  But then people would post a video of it and say "look what Israel is doing to our homes.  This isn't about eliminating Hamas this is about revenge."  Hamas got 15 Israeli soldiers in Khan Younis just yesterday. 

Blaming Hamas for the deaths of Palestinians is perilously close to victim blaming.

This might just be the dumbest post in this thread, which is no small feat

[GoTfan]

It would be one thing to have bombed them for a continual campagin of drone strikes and raids into Gaza to eliminate the Hamas leadership as well as a tightening of the existing blockade but the current plan of discriminate carpet bombing has no point but revenge.

There is no reason other than an emotional reaction to believe that Israel's bombings have no point but revenge.  Israel has been consistently clear from day 1 that their goal is to eliminate Hamas and to all appearances they are succeeding, as Hamas presence outside of Rafah has dropped and Israel now appears to be mostly an occupying force dealing with urban guerilla warfare, rather than actively engaged in street-by-street conquest.  Accordingly, targeted bombings and shootings have slowed down dramatically and demolitions these days are mostly related to the destruction of tunnel networks or booby-trapped buildings.

Drone strikes and raids are what Israel used to do but the last few years have shown that this is not enough to remove Hamas.  The tunnel network is too strong.  You have to physically occupy Gaza and go building-to-building taking the weapons and destroying the tunnels.  If the tunnels are under buildings then you have no choice but to collapse those buildings.

It may not seem reasonable -- those buildings are people's homes, after all -- but it is Hamas to blame for this, not Israel.  Those buildings were marked for death the moment Hamas decided to remove the earth in their foundations and build tunnels instead.  Or the minute Hamas decided to fill the corridors with explosives.  Hamas fans were very proud a couple weeks ago when the IDF stormed a building that was lined with explosives and Hamas ignited the building, destroying it and killing 24 Jewish soldiers.  Israel should have just done an airstrike on that building.  But then people would post a video of it and say "look what Israel is doing to our homes.  This isn't about eliminating Hamas this is about revenge."  Hamas got 15 Israeli soldiers in Khan Younis just yesterday. 

Blaming Hamas for the deaths of Palestinians is perilously close to victim blaming.

This might just be the dumbest post in this thread, which is no small feat

Yes, I worded it badly. My mistake.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

It would be one thing to have bombed them for a continual campagin of drone strikes and raids into Gaza to eliminate the Hamas leadership as well as a tightening of the existing blockade but the current plan of discriminate carpet bombing has no point but revenge.

There is no reason other than an emotional reaction to believe that Israel's bombings have no point but revenge.  Israel has been consistently clear from day 1 that their goal is to eliminate Hamas and to all appearances they are succeeding, as Hamas presence outside of Rafah has dropped and Israel now appears to be mostly an occupying force dealing with urban guerilla warfare, rather than actively engaged in street-by-street conquest.  Accordingly, targeted bombings and shootings have slowed down dramatically and demolitions these days are mostly related to the destruction of tunnel networks or booby-trapped buildings.

Drone strikes and raids are what Israel used to do but the last few years have shown that this is not enough to remove Hamas.  The tunnel network is too strong.  You have to physically occupy Gaza and go building-to-building taking the weapons and destroying the tunnels.  If the tunnels are under buildings then you have no choice but to collapse those buildings.

It may not seem reasonable -- those buildings are people's homes, after all -- but it is Hamas to blame for this, not Israel.  Those buildings were marked for death the moment Hamas decided to remove the earth in their foundations and build tunnels instead.  Or the minute Hamas decided to fill the corridors with explosives.  Hamas fans were very proud a couple weeks ago when the IDF stormed a building that was lined with explosives and Hamas ignited the building, destroying it and killing 24 Jewish soldiers.  Israel should have just done an airstrike on that building.  But then people would post a video of it and say "look what Israel is doing to our homes.  This isn't about eliminating Hamas this is about revenge."  Hamas got 15 Israeli soldiers in Khan Younis just yesterday.  

Blaming Hamas for the deaths of Palestinians is perilously close to victim blaming.

This might just be the dumbest post in this thread, which is no small feat

The extent to which the security needs and legitimate desires of Palestinians are completely neglected by both Hamas and the Israeli government, within the paradigm created by Israeli security policies, is yet still more tragic than this post could ever be fairly regarded as dumb.
To be clear, Hamas is partially responsible for what's going on, but Israel has the legitimate powers and responsibilities of imperium and yet refuses to act in line with what fairly could be defined as genuine, clear responsibility. It has majority responsibility for what is going on, even if that responsibility is not total.

[Indy Texas]

U.N. Says Inquiry Finds Evidence of Sexual Assault in Hamas-Led Attack on Israel

In their report, the experts said they had found “reasonable grounds” to believe that sexual violence occurred during the Hamas-led incursion into Israel, including rape and gang rape in at least three locations: the Nova music festival site and its surroundings, Road 232, and Kibbutz Re’im.

“In most of these incidents, victims first subjected to rape were then killed, and at least two incidents relate to the rape of women’s corpses,” the report said.

The report said it found “a pattern of victims, mostly women, found fully or partially naked, bound, and shot across multiple locations,” and although the evidence was circumstantial the pattern could indicate some of form of sexual violence and torture.

It also said it had found “clear and convincing evidence” that hostages being held in Gaza were assaulted.

Combatants sexually assaulting female civilians has been a regrettable feature of armed combat for basically all of modern human history.

This is why it is: (1) ludicrous for people to claim Hamas sexually assaulting captives is beyond the realm of possibility; (2) unreasonable to expect this to merit any more attention than was given to rape victims in other wars (the Bangladeshi war of independence, Sudan's war in Darfur, Tigray, etc).

Why do rape victims in Israel get a congressional resolution condemning their assailants but rape victims in Ethiopia do not?

[Lord Halifax]

Why do rape victims in Israel get a congressional resolution condemning their assailants but rape victims in Ethiopia do not?

because Israel is a US ally and Ethiopia isn't

[GeneralMacArthur]

Why do rape victims in Israel get a congressional resolution condemning their assailants but rape victims in Ethiopia do not?

because Israel is a US ally and Ethiopia isn't

Because extremist American media organizations didn't devote enormous amounts of time and energy trying to convince people that Ethiopians were lying about being raped and assaulted and it was all a big hoax to fund the military industrial complex.

[Horus]

The idea that American media is somehow biased against Israel is one of the most delusional takes I've ever seen in my entire life. What planet are some of you on?

[GeneralMacArthur]

The idea that American media is somehow biased against Israel is one of the most delusional takes I've ever seen in my entire life. What planet are some of you on?

Did you skip where I specified "extremist" media orgs, or is that word too many syllables for you?  I'm talking about The Intercept and their ilk, which as you surely know, have been screaming at the top of their lungs for five months and counting that 10/7 was a hoax, nobody was raped, only soldiers were kidnapped, and the only people who died were actually killed by Israel.

It's all part of this wild conspiracy theory that 10/7 was a false flag where Israel killed its own people as a pretext for invading Gaza and killing all the Palestinians.  Seems like a really fun thing to pretend to believe if you already bear a seething, all-consuming hatred for Israel.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

It's tempting as it is to assume the current events in Gaza are a one-off blip in an otherwise long running conflict, the death toll in this instance is truly staggering and not at comporable to the past. Hamas terrorism on October 7th was of course responsible for starting the current conflict, by getting rid of any Israeli opposition for the current campagin and people who celebrated it as some glorious decolonail strike are more vacuumes but the  that does change the reality of current events.

More people have been killed in the last 6 months in Gaza by the IDF  than have been killed for the past 50 years of the conflict prior. So many people seem to to be trying to pretend this distinction doesn't matter but the scale of the campagin in Gaza is horrific and there's no actual end in sight for the conflict.  There's no actual proposal for a long term end to the conflict.

For those who are supportive of continuing the war, just how many palestianian deaths are acceptable for elimating hamas ?. The way people like Mr X, Vosem and Patzer act, they seem to think that killing every single resident in Gaza is worth it if it eliminates Hamas.

It would be one thing to have bombed them for a continual campagin of drone strikes and raids into Gaza to eliminate the Hamas leadership as well as a tightening of the existing blockade but the current plan of discriminate carpet bombing has no point but revenge.

Please show me where I have ever advocated “killing every single resident in Gaza.”   

I’m waiting…

[GeneralMacArthur]

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/opinion/hamas-sexual-violence-israel.html?unlocked_article_code=1.ak0.beub.McBC3BYZa63k&smid=url-share

Good article.

That should be more than enough. It won’t be. A large and expanding corner of the West refuses to accept that Israel’s war in Gaza is a response to evil, or that Israelis might be victims in any way. It disturbs the narrative of the war in Gaza as a case of strong against weak, the settler-colonialist Israelis against righteous and indigenous victims.

Honest critics of Israel’s policies can raise serious objections while also candidly acknowledging the horrific circumstances that set those policies in motion. What we are seeing instead are dishonest critics, dishonestly disputing those circumstances so they can take aim at the existence of Israel itself.

Serious people should know what an older version of antisemitic denialism was all about: a steady stream of factual nitpicks, logical inversions and rhetorical legerdemain meant to obfuscate and deny the greatest crime in history. They should also understand the aim: that by denying past atrocities, they paved the way for the next ones. Today’s rape deniers are no better than their forebears.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

The idea that American media is somehow biased against Israel is one of the most delusional takes I've ever seen in my entire life. What planet are some of you on?

Did you skip where I specified "extremist" media orgs, or is that word too many syllables for you?  I'm talking about The Intercept and their ilk, which as you surely know, have been screaming at the top of their lungs for five months and counting that 10/7 was a hoax, nobody was raped, only soldiers were kidnapped, and the only people who died were actually killed by Israel.

It's all part of this wild conspiracy theory that 10/7 was a false flag where Israel killed its own people as a pretext for invading Gaza and killing all the Palestinians.  Seems like a really fun thing to pretend to believe if you already bear a seething, all-consuming hatred for Israel.

What they've actually been screaming at the top of their lungs is that the New York Times, a supposed "legitimate news outlet",

* Cited made up atrocities from an ultra-orthodox organization led by an ex-terrorist serial pedophile

* Claimed people to have been victims of sexual assault who were not

* Hired unqualified writers with no journalistic experience who explicitly told their interviewees that the purpose of their article was "Hasbara" (aka propaganda)

There's no defending this Iraq War tier yellow journalism so the NYT has to completely pivot to instead do battle with a strawman. The fact that the NYT never bothered with a massive, front page investigation of the Palestinians sexually assaulted by Israelis should make it pretty obvious where the actual media biases lie.

[Silent Hunter]

Both thngs are true - atrocities were exaggerated, but atrocities did happen.

[CumbrianLefty]

Both thngs are true - atrocities were exaggerated, but atrocities did happen.

As is usually the case in wartime.

[Wiswylfen]

It's tempting as it is to assume the current events in Gaza are a one-off blip in an otherwise long running conflict, the death toll in this instance is truly staggering and not at comporable to the past. Hamas terrorism on October 7th was of course responsible for starting the current conflict, by getting rid of any Israeli opposition for the current campagin and people who celebrated it as some glorious decolonail strike are more vacuumes but the  that does change the reality of current events.

More people have been killed in the last 6 months in Gaza by the IDF  than have been killed for the past 50 years of the conflict prior. So many people seem to to be trying to pretend this distinction doesn't matter but the scale of the campagin in Gaza is horrific and there's no actual end in sight for the conflict.  There's no actual proposal for a long term end to the conflict.

For those who are supportive of continuing the war, just how many palestianian deaths are acceptable for elimating hamas ?. The way people like Mr X, Vosem and Patzer act, they seem to think that killing every single resident in Gaza is worth it if it eliminates Hamas.

It would be one thing to have bombed them for a continual campagin of drone strikes and raids into Gaza to eliminate the Hamas leadership as well as a tightening of the existing blockade but the current plan of discriminate carpet bombing has no point but revenge.

Please show me where I have ever advocated “killing every single resident in Gaza.”   

I’m waiting…

It's a matter of revealed preferences, isn't it? I mean, what you *say* your views are is irrelevant: you talk of your "distaste for the ultra-partisans on either side in the United States" one moment, then the next you're defending Israel on the premise that actually maybe it was 20,000 dead and not 25,000 dead. And also accusing people on this forum of wanting to 'finish the Holocaust' and 'supporting rape and mass murder' for being 'anti-Israel' (before retreating from it and saying actually it was a social experiment) (one difference between your post and Dule's btw is that you said 'posters'; another is that his was and is true).

Anyway I do like that you're going after afleitch. Mote and beam.

[Horus]

Trump voters aren't so "America First" when it comes to Israel.

https://twitter.com/_waleedshahid/status/1765055486926201084?t=KRWw3Ert3y2Hp1B6T...